Confessions of a Rogue Writer: Don’t Waste Your Time With Critique Groups
Posted By Stephen England on February 2, 2012
“At the start of every poorly written indie novel, there’s a dedication to the critique group that ‘improved’ it.”
I made that claim on Twitter a few weeks ago and was somewhat amused by the horror with which it was met. Apparently, the independent publishing movement, while still wet behind the ears, is still old enough to have some sacred cows. And critique groups seem to be one of them.
I am sure that there are some writers out there who have truly found their craft improved by comparing and contrasting themselves with their peers, but, judging from those that I have known—critique groups are little more than a colossal waste of time.
To adapt an old saying: writers write. Those who want to talk about what they plan to write. . .join a critique group.
It’s sad, but true. Your average critique group is not populated with successful writers. They’re all much too busy out publicizing their books and writing the next one. They regrettably don’t have the time to engage in hand-holding with people who haven’t yet learned proper pacing or even sound grammar.
So, what do you have in the average critique group? You have the people who love to talk about writing, the people who have been working on the next “Great American Novel” ever since the late ‘60s, those that fancy themselves the next Hemingway, etc. If we’re talking about a critique group in your local area, the odds of any of them actually being in your genre go through the floor—and you have an even greater chance of them being the sort of “literary” snobs that faint dead away at even the notion of low-brow “genre fiction”. Having a Regency Romance author critique your spy thriller is not going to end well. . .
On-line critique groups offer a better chance of tailoring the advice to your specific needs, but, as always, consider the source. Is Vince Flynn in your critique group? No, I didn’t think so. You’re still taking “advice” from people who are in the same boat with you, people whose proficiency levels are likely similar to your own—or even lower.
But, says an author, I like my critique group because it keeps me accountable when I don’t want to write! I know that if I don’t have X number of words written by the meeting, I’m going to feel embarrassed. That’s a good thing!
No, it isn’t. Like all arbitrary goals(a page a day, etc.), this emphasizes quantity over quality and is ultimately self-defeating. Besides, if you’re not self-motivated enough to keep yourself on track, independent publishing is not for you. Trust me on this.
But, I hear another say, I get a lot of differing opinions on my book and I can keep rewriting until I find a consensus. When a bunch of them agree that it’s right, I know I’ve arrived!
Wrong again. Nothing creative, nothing truly original ever came out of a consensus.
I read a blog post by the Indie Book Collective within the last week praising critique groups and calling them the “ideal learning environment”. Sad as it is to say, the books by Carolyn McCray and some of her followers are classic examples of what I stated in my first sentence. Stilted characters, leaden dialogue, and feeble plotting only convince me that if they learned anything from their critique group, I would hate to have seen the original manuscript! Ideal learning environment, I don’t think. . .
But how then, you ask, do I improve my work? The answer is as difficult to accomplish as it is devilishly simple. It’s what I said in my interview with Suspense Magazine: “if you’re going to self-publish, you have to be self-motivated and self-critical.” Turn on your inner editor. Become a perfectionist.
How do you do this without a critique group to keep you on the “straight and narrow”?
Read what you want to write. Read it incessantly, read it religiously until you know all the rules of your genre and how to break them effectively. Until you know what sells and what doesn’t. Until, as NYT bestselling author Brad Thor said, “You’ve spent so much time immersed in that genre that you’re entitled to consider yourself a sub-expert”.
Then go thou and do likewise. . .
Regards, the Rogue Writer
I'm a writer. Yes, perhaps that's obvious. A writer of adventure fiction, both ancient and modern. This summer I followed the release of my first novel, Sword of Neamha with the debut thriller of the Shadow Warriors series, Pandora's Grave. . .
I was in a local writer’s group a few years back. Yeah, it was of absolutely no use. Mine leaned toward the literary. That meant they looked down on anything that came close to having a thing known as a ‘plot’. Anything close to genre – unless done ironically – would have exploded their heads.
It was writing by committee and the only great piece of literature to be written by committee was the King James Bible.
In general you are correct, however, I created my own writing groups and all of us have published in one way or another–including multi book deals and being repeed agents like Maas.
I keep thinking I should be a literary agent as I seem to have an eye for talent.
I have always carefully cultivated the writers I critique with, including kicking disruptive people out of groups. The interesting thing, gatekeeping was never based on their writing, but personality.
M
Repeed should be repped, I doubt agents are re-peeing their authors.
M
Oh, Stephen, are you cynical! Haha. But then again, I agree with your assessment of critique groups. But I will add this tip – study the craft. Find a good writing course that includes studying different styles of writing throughout the centuries. Don’t be pigeon-holed by Show Don’t tell and the mantra that’s it the editing elite’s gift to the writing world. It’s not.
When sound professional criticism is made, consider it seriously. No author is beyond learning.
That I am, Shawn.
You’re correct–no author ever stops learning, and you should strive for every book to be better than the previous one. Learning from your “peers” is another story entirely. . .
I think you have a point BUT it is impossible for a writer to “turn on their inner editor” until they have some clue what they’re doing. I read an indie novel, a “mystery/romance” yesterday that had pretty high reviews on Amazon… or tried to. Someone who had obviously been nowhere near a critique group of any kind. A plot with no tension whatsoever. The only unpleasant person in the entire town was the murderer–a woman of course. The romance was that they met each other again and within a few days fell into each other’s arms, no problems. The dialogue wasn’t bad but the tags all came right out of a book of “saidisms”. I don’t think there was one the writer missed. I felt bad for the writer.
A new writer NEEDS feedback.
I don’t do writing groups any more but I did get a lot out of one (Critique Circle is the online group I found most worthwhile) when I was starting out. Writing by consensus is a bad idea but someone who can groan and point out that you’re falling into a newbie trap is a GOOD idea.
Then you need to outgrow depending on that. I do use several beta readers though, because inner editor or not, writers and others very much tend not to see their own errors.
Beta readers are a good idea, JR. I wouldn’t leave home without them. As far as turning on the “inner editor”, the only thing I ever did was exactly what Brad Thor advised in that quote. I read my genre. A few years and I knew what worked and what bombed.
Very interesting insight. I’m in the process of editing my first novel and really want to take the right steps to ensure that it is the best it can be in the most efficient way possible. What are your thought on hiring professional editors?
Traci, my thoughts on professional editors are mixed. My advice to you would be to seek out your favorite independent authors and find out who they used. I’ve seen cases in which an editor helped–and I’ve heard a lot of horror stories from authors who spent hundreds of dollars and wound up with an error-filled book. Quality varies in the freelance world.
I couldn’t agree with you more. Every critique group I’ve ever been involved with has been a complete waste of time. I got more from the walk to the coffee shop, where I was pre-writing one of my scenes in my head. The walk home all I could think of was how John seemed like a cool guy, but that Jennifer–what a prude!
While I do agree that there poor critique groups exist, I believe you’re painting with a broader brush than necessary.
My current critique group helps writers find plot holes, improve pacing, and further develop characters. We’re all genre writers (though you’re correct that some of us have more experience and success than others) and I appreciate the feedback when my novels go through the process.
Even when the group isn’t critiquing my novel, I sometimes learn how to write better by consciously determining what I love in one manuscript or scene that’s missing in another.
I would not, however, claim that everybody should be in a critique group any more than I would always caution against it.
Regardless, thanks for the post!
Thanks for your input, Jim. All viewpoints are, of course, colored by experience.
I attended several writer’s workshops a/k/a critique groups in person and felt like I wasted my time and money. The two hour stints were nothing more than group therapy for people half my age. Conversly, I was active with an on-line writer’s workshop for two years and left it with good memories and much more knowledge and skill than when I started. HOWEVER, it was not for the thin-skinned. Some author/reviewers were beyond professional and generally considered the other writer’s feelings and provided constructive AND WELL DELIVERED advice, suggestions, and corrections. Others wouldn’t know a good bedside manner if it bit them in the posterior. Generally, those people used a psuedonym like Alphonso the Wonder Writer or Albuquerque Writing Mom of 6. It’s amazing what people will say while under the protection of anonymity.
I’ve been to some truly horrific critique groups … the type I would have left in tears if I wasn’t so busy laughing.
Then again, I’ve also been to some great ones. I think the social aspect may be the best part: spending time with other writers (and really, other humans) is good for the soul.
About critique, I have a saying I use to preface ALL my critique comments: “Other people’s ideas! The worst!” So I acknowledge how horrible my ideas will sound before I offer them. I figure in two weeks, the better ideas will become theirs.
These days, I’m getting less critique/feedback from others, but I’ve also got more experience under my belt. I paid my dues with the critique groups, and now I can read my work and hear the ghostly version of the group giving their feedback on my work, for me to use or ignore as I wish.
If nothing else, being bashed by a critique group is excellent experience for later, when you get reviewed by strangers.
I agree with you 100%, Stephan! In the past I belonged to two critique groups. One was decent (an online group) and the other was utterly worthless. Stereotypical literary snobs who hadn’t even bothered to do much writing. You talk about writers in these groups who are working on their next book in your post – well not in this one! One chick carried around that novel Gadsby by E.V. Wright. Never bothered to write much of her own stuff though. Then in comes the genre barbarian (me). They would barely acknowledge my existence in the room. After that terrible experience I decided that critique groups were no substitute for reading the authors you want to learn the craft from. If you get something useful out of a crit group that’s great. Finding a good one can be difficult though. Personally, I don’t have the time anymore. Too busy writing.
As for young writers the best learning they can get is in a creative writing class with a good instructor.
I have never had the time to become part of a group. I did join a couple of groups on marketing but found that most people there were just hawking their own books with little else offered. I work long hours at what some would call my real job and have very little time for writing and joining a bunch of groups that offer no results. I do use beta readers when I can. As for self editing that is hard for me. I consider myself more of a storyteller than a writer. Once the story is out and on file I want to move on. That is why I have friends whose opinion I trust look at it. Many times they will suggest tweeks and point out my mistakes. Then I PAY an editor that I trust to find the final grammatical mistakes. So pretty much I go along with Stephen’s comments here.
This is great advice.
I’ve been shocked to learn that many of the indie authors out there don’t seem to be avid readers. It’s a frightening prospect. The thing is, we know. Readers know when writers don’t read because it shows in your writing. And then we choose not to buy the book, and move on to someone who is a reader.
If everyone took a hiatus from their critique groups and read during their newfound free time, I imagine they’d see some great results.
I often find an indie writer on Twitter who seems interesting, only to see that they are on Goodreads, but the only books on their shelves are their own. RED FLAG! That just says “Move on, nothing to read here” to me.
I did go to a writer’s group, way, way, way back in the early days, when I was first thinking seriously about writing – didn’t get a thing out of it. When I did start writing as an indy, I bounced the drafts off of several different readers whom I trusted for good feedback, and posted chapters on my various blogs. I think this was been more help to me than a critique circle YMMV.
Oh, and being an avid reader – means that I’m tearing through so many books that I don’t have time to update my Goodreads page!
Stephen – truer words were never spoken: “Nothing creative, nothing truly original ever came out of a consensus.” A writer who values the words of others over his own has no words worth writing; ergo, writing groups are a waste of time. I’ve learned this from weary experience; save for one exception, all of the groups I’ve belonged to have been disasters. From pompous moderators to blowhards who’d never finished a piece of writing on their own (and quite a few who had never even started) to bored people who’d joined simply because the macrame class was full, these writing groups were a waste of time.
On the other hand, I know in my heart that I will need an editor. Thank the Lord, I have a friend who’s a literary Simon Cowell who will tell you the truth; and if you want to be good, you will take her advice. Better yet, she not only finds the grammatical flaws but plot and character flaws as well. I intend to pay this woman for her work if I have to pin her to the floor and stuff the bills down her jumper.
It so happens I blogged about my experiences with a critique group: http://twofistedblogger.blogspot.com/2011/07/from-writers-purgatory-to-american.html
The group I belonged to did have some bragging rights, but from where I am now I mostly agree. They may have helped some folks back when New York tradpubbing was the only game in town (because the group simulated the kind of gauntlet a book had to run to land in front of an editor), but right now they represent just more dead weight from the old system.
Kudos for stating it all so bluntly.
Times is precious and fleeting. I try to spend it where I get some bang for my bucks. Better to find a talented mentor than a critque group.
It’s true, I’ve met far more crappy writers via offline crit group than I have met decent ones. But I can’t stop. They’re all so damn impressed I’m actually out there getting stuff done.
This is a great piece. I had a similar experience when I went to my first writer’s circle as a teenager. One guy had written this peach of a story – an absolute gem of Gothic horror, set in the Spanish Civil War. God, I can still remember it to this day, and was 27 years ago.
The plot was tight, the language brilliant, the mood ghostly. I told him so. The sniffy little runt next to me, after I’d finished, announced with a dismissive air. “Yes, well I think I have something more useful to say than that…” He or she (I couldn’t tell) then went on to explain all the places where according to rules of grammar, a semicolon should have been used instead of a comma.
Next up was an elderly gentleman who announced that he had had friends die in the Spanish Civil War, and writing a story about it was in some way offending against a universal law of taste.
By this time I’d had enough, got up and left. Shitbags.
I haven’t been to a writer’s circle since.
What I will say is I did write tv scripts for many years, and worked with various tv editors, some good, some not. Meeting an editor – someone you respect – teaches you to look for various elements in the story and teaches you a detached view of the work. You just HAVE to accept that someone doesn’t necessarily like your key scene, because they are paying your wages. I have to say, in retrospect, they were right. They taught me to look at my work objectively, not as an extension of my ego, or penis come to that.
That skill – objectivity – however you acquire it (excluding surgical intervention), is the most important one of all. It might also be called experience.